0:07 Madi Minges: From the School of International Service at American University in Washington, this is Big World, where we talk about something in the world that truly matters.

0:15 Yerevan Saeed: Because when you're talking about all this state repression and some multi-layered stages of genocide, again, the Kurds are still the Kurds being able to keep their language, their traditions, heritage together, it's almost like a miracle.

0:36 Madi Minges: That was Professor Yerevan Saeed. He joins us today to talk about Kurdish politics.

0:42 Madi Minges: Spread across four regions in the Middle East is a geocultural region known as Kurdistan. This region is home to a majority of Kurds, one of the world's largest stateless populations. It's estimated that roughly 40 to 50 million Kurds live across Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Turkey. The Kurds have strived for an independent state since the fall of the Ottoman Empire, facing years of marginalization and even violence along the way. Today we're talking about Kurdish statehood and Kurdish politics.

1:13 Madi Minges: I'm Madi Minges and I'm joined by Yerevan Saeed. Yerevan is the Barzani Scholar in Residence and the director of the Global Kurdish Initiative for Peace at the School of International Service. He is also a Nonresident Senior Fellow at the Atlantic Council. Yerevan is a former journalist and his research focuses on political economy, energy politics, conflict resolution, and Kurdish studies. Yerevan, thanks for joining Big World.

1:39 Yerevan Saeed: My pleasure, thanks for having me.

1:41 Madi Minges: To start us out, Yerevan, I was wondering if you could maybe give us a brief history explaining why despite many attempts, the Kurds have never gained statehood recognition.

1:54 Yerevan Saeed: So the Kurds, like many other ethnic nations, were a part of the Ottoman Empire. Once the Ottoman Empire fell apart, the Kurds were deprived of their own statehood. Even though initially the Kurds were given the promise of their own Kurdish state, according to the Sèvres accord of Treaty of 1920 that was signed after the World War I. But unfortunately, that treaty was replaced by 1923 laws and treaty, which deprived the Kurds of their own statehood. Turkey was given back most of the territories that composed of today's Republic of Turkey. And also today's Iraq that we see the British control. Syria was given to the French, it was divided between these colonial powers at that time.

2:57 Yerevan Saeed: And the reason it was divided that way, because Kurdistan, especially Kirkuk, which was a part of the Mosul Vilayet or state of the Ottoman Empire at that time had lots of oil, and the British wanted to keep the oil. And the result of that, they forced the Kurds in fact, to stay and become a part of today's Iraq. And they pushed back the French more towards Levant. As a result of that, the Kurds had no, in fact, any say in determining their own fate.

3:35 Yerevan Saeed: Because of that, the Kurds did try to get back their rights and they wanted to have their own state. They launched multiple insurgencies and revolutions in today's Turkey and Iraq and also in Iran. But they were suppressed, they were defeated not by, for example, by the governments of Iraq or Turkey or Iran. But also by the same colonial powers who had come and also divided the Kurds. Because having a Kurdish state who did not serve them, it had severe implications for their economic interests. So in the case of the Iraqi Kurdistan through 1920s, 30s, 40s, all the way until 1990s. In fact, you have had active Kurdish revolution and insurgencies. In Turkey, you have had the same. And also as we are talking, you have a Kurdish insurgency going on in Iran. You have had Kurdish insurgencies throughout last century as we are talking, where you have Kurdish ... active Kurdish insurgency as well.

4:54 Yerevan Saeed: In 1948, you have a Kurdish state that's called the Republic of Kurdistan in Mahabad. With the support of the Soviets, the Kurds were able to stand their feet and declare an independent Kurdish state. But again, that became the victim of international plot because the Soviets, the American and the British, reached an agreement where Iran was able to give oil concession to the British and the American companies. And that in return, these two powerful countries push it the Russians to back off from supporting the Kurds. And the Kurdish Statehood at that time failed. And their leaders, the President Qazi Muhammad was executed. So the geography of Kurdistan was because it's landlocked, it was not helpful. Kurdistan is very large geographical area, very mountainous as well. And also the Kurds are surrounded by all these antagonistic neighbors. Which makes it really difficult for them unless they have an international patron it's very, very hard for the Kurds to be able to support themselves and also be able, for example, establish a state by themselves.

6:27 Madi Minges: I want to also ask you about ... I know we mentioned that the Kurds right now are kind of spread in the Middle East across four different countries. So I'm curious in a practical sense, what would statehood mean for the Kurds in terms of kind of that regional spread? And then also why does statehood matter? What is the big importance of having statehood recognition?

6:57 Yerevan Saeed: Statehood comes with sovereignty, and sovereignty gives you immunity. And the immunity in the case of the Kurds, for example, against the state oppression and also violence. What the Kurds have object to or suffered from in the last 100 years has been brutal state violence from all these four countries. In the case of Iraqi Kurdistan, for example, the Kurds have been subjected to multiple cycles of genocidal campaigns. That's why the Kurds want statehood. The idea for their own security. The Kurds in Iraq have not been subjected to this level of brutality since 1991, because we were able to take care of our own efforts and provide our own security. That does not mean that we have not had problem. We have had lots of problems. But at least we were not subjected to this kind of mass violence and mass massacres by the Iraqi government. That's exactly why it has been very important for the Kurds to have statehood.

8:22 Yerevan Saeed: In addition to that, like any other people, it does not just make any sense for 40 plus million people not to have their own state. While other countries, some has even less than 100 thousand people as population, and they have their own sovereignty and also their own statehood. And the Kurds are minority because we have been divided. Otherwise if we are as one nation have our own borders, we are in fact majority. And the Kurdistan is very rich in the term of natural resources, people. We have one of the youngest population in today's Kurdistan if you're talking about the cultural border, that's called Kurdistan today.

9:19 Yerevan Saeed: So the idea of a Kurdish statehood is sustainable economically, for example. But geopolitically it is not possible because of how the Kurds have been divided. So when you're talking about the Kurdish statehood, the structure is so damaged by the Europeans. The design has been so terribly laid out that conflict is almost impossible to solve completely. Because it's very, very difficult to convince four different capitals to give the Kurds, for example, statehood or even autonomy.

10:08 Yerevan Saeed: In the case of the Iraqi Kurdistan, for example, today you have the Kurdistan Regional government, which is an autonomous region within Iraq is constitutionally recognized. And also you have the Kurds in Syria, which have been fighting ISIS for the last 11 years. They have provided stability, they have fought along the coalition, especially the Americans. But now, as soon as the Kurds are not useful anymore, unfortunately, the Kurds have been asked to give up all their hard-won rights. Including the local governance system that they have established there. Because Turkey is not happy. Damascus wants the western countries to help regain control of the northeastern of Syria. And again, all of this will come back to the supreme interests of the neighboring countries, as well as the international community. Which means that rights sometimes do not matter, all matters is national interest or economic interest. Trump human rights, for example, or the rights of self-determination.

11:39 Madi Minges: I'm curious too, without the sovereignty that you mentioned, without the sovereignty that statehood brings. Can you talk about what do diplomatic relations look like with the Kurds? What relations do they have with other Middle Eastern nations? How, I guess if you don't have statehood, how do you interact in international relations or interact diplomatically with countries, other countries in the Middle East and with the US as well?

12:09 Yerevan Saeed: So the Kurds have been conducting diplomacy at the sub-national level. It has not been an official diplomacy. So it has been more lobbying at an official level. They have established, for example, in the term of the Kurdistan region, again, which is an autonomous region within Iraq, that is more recognized the Kurdistan region has diplomatic missions and offices in Europe, in the United States, in Russia, in China. And also it has developed very well relationships with the neighboring countries, including the Gulf countries, with Turkey, with Iran as well.

12:53 Yerevan Saeed: But the Kurdistan region does not have embassy. It has not, for example, diplomatic immunity. All of this, of course, will limit what can you achieve, what can you get. And also it limits you in the term of achieving your political goals within these countries to institutionalize your relationship with this countries. Because all of this relationship at the end are political relationship, they're not institutionalized. Unless you are state, you cannot have institutionalized relationship, for example, state-to-state relationship. And that means this kind of relationship can be taken away at any moment. And for example, Baghdad, if it wants it, can challenge the Kurdistan region constitutionally or legally, say that you cannot conduct this kind of relationships. And that could make things really difficult for the Kurds. Even it can, for example, leverage its economic relationship with some of these countries to severe relationship with the Kurdistan region, not to conduct it, for example, diplomacy.

14:10 Yerevan Saeed: We are not at this stage, but the problem is that whenever central governments becomes stronger, the rights of the Kurds recede. And that has been true historically. Whenever the center is weak, the Kurds enjoy their rights, their economic, social, anthrop-political condition improve. But unfortunately, as soon as the central government becomes stabilized economically and politically, what they do is usually come back and try to weaken the Kurds. And now we are gradually seeing the signs of this trend that has been there historically, again, resurface itself, for example, today in Iraq. Again, we are seeing that in Syria, Damascus. Assad regime is not there, there was a civil war. Now a new government is there. The international support is pouring the neighboring countries, except Israel supporting Damascus.

15:24 Yerevan Saeed: The Kurds are suffering as the result of that. What shouldn't be the case. But the problem is that all of these countries see the Kurds through the prism of security. They see them as a threat, not as an integral part of their country. They don't see them as their own citizen. And that is very, very problematic. As long as there is this zero-sum approach toward this Kurdish issue, I don't think we're going to get anywhere. And let us not forget something very important, that is often the Kurdish conflict in the Middle East, which is really the oldest and probably the biggest one. Because it encompasses four different countries at a very wide geographical area with severe repercussions.

16:17 Yerevan Saeed: We're talking about 14 million people now, and it'll impact it probably 10 times population if instability, for example, suppresses in that parties of the world. People often overlook that fact. They're more focused, for example, Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I'm not trying to downplay the importance of that conflict. It is really important. But the fact that the Kurdish people have not had friends in the past, they did not have anyone to support them in the term of stages. For example, Palestinians had at least hundreds of countries supporting them, promoting them. They have been recognized in the United Nations, at least 150 countries at the moment we are talking are recognized in their status. No one really advocated for us until recently.

17:21 Yerevan Saeed: And that in the term of literature, publication, for example, like you know, Kurdish studies, you really don't have many of this. You have the Kurdish, for example, initiative at the American University, you have another Kurdish program at the University of Florida. But you have none of this in any other universities across North America, in Latin America, in Europe, probably you have another or two Kurdish studies programs, and that is it. But look at the other universities. They have all Palestinian or Israeli studies. What I'm trying to say that even the Kurds have been ignored or excluded when it comes to literature and scholarship. Because of how we have been excluded and how we have been pushed in the term of intellectuality and also academia. And that, of course, has impacted the Kurdish writers on the global stage as well.

18:28 Madi Minges: When you're talking, the thing that keeps coming to mind is just marginalization, how the Kurds are kind of facing this marginalization from all sides. Not just from the four countries where their population is largely spread across at this point. But I know you're saying other countries as well that aren't really recognizing their struggle, their desire for statehood. They're just being marginalized. So I'm curious, as you think about the future for the Kurds and as Kurdish leaders and the Kurdish people as a whole think about a future for themselves, what do you think comes next? And where does the fight for statehood stand at this time?

19:10 Yerevan Saeed: As we are talking, today is September 25th, actually the eighth anniversary of the Kurdistan Independence Referendum. We have had independence referendum in 2017. 93% of the Kurds who participated in the referendum voted in favor of independence, and they wanted a Kurdish state in today's Iraqi Kurdistan. But what was the consequence? Everybody came and ganged up against us. Iran closed the airspace. Turkey, Iran, they imposed an economic embargo on us, they closed the borders, the international community, all of them. In fact, they refused to even talk to us. They sanctioned us diplomatically. And even Iran and the United States that do not see eye to eye, they were united in opposing the Kurdish statehood. So you can see how difficult this is. Even two countries adversarial as Washington and Iran, when it came to the Kurdish statehood, they are united in opposing it.

20:33 Yerevan Saeed: So looking forward, while the Kurdish statehood might not be possible, at least at this stage of history. The Kurds at least should have their own economic, political, and also cultural rights are recognized within these countries. Whether in Turkey, in Syria, in Iran, and in the Kurdistan region of Iraq. Whatever constitutional and legal rights we have, must be protected, so that this vicious cycle of violence that the Kurds, for example, so in Iraq, especially in 1980s, all these cycles of genocidal campaign, will not be repeated again.

21:21 Yerevan Saeed: Otherwise, I don't see a future where the Kurds will be able to live in peace. And if there is no peace, it'll impact everyone. It won't be just about the Kurds. I think it'll just means instability for the whole Middle East, and that will have ripple effect beyond the current borders. It'll have regional and also international security implications. You're talking about migrations, refugees going to have impact on the European countries as well.

21:58 Yerevan Saeed: So in order to stop and also cut probably the cost of all of these unintended consequences is much, much better to work and also solve these problems within this countries by granting the Kurds, at least, the right to be a citizen of this country. Equal rights to be able to speak their languages, to be able to study in their own languages, political and also economic opportunity in the term of equality. So that there won't be any more insurgency, there won't be any Kurdish, for example, revolution the Kurds. The young Kurds won't be in the mountains fighting for their status for two or three decades or even more to come.

22:53 Madi Minges: Yerevan, as the Kurds have faced these years of violence and marginalization and the continued struggle for independence, how have they kept their culture and traditions alive throughout history? And how has that continued to the present day?

23:13 Yerevan Saeed: So, great question. So the protection of the culture and sense of identity has been more about the geography really has helped the mountains areas of Kurdistan. The Kurds been like a sense of cohesion and being togetherness. And also the state of oppression, again, the Kurds have made them united as well. All of this has helped the Kurds to be able to protect their sense of unity. Because when you're talking about all this state repression and some multi-layered stages of genocide, again, the Kurds are still the Kurds being able to keep their language, their traditions, heritage together is almost like a miracle. In fact, the Kurds to have such a comeback after all this, like decades of oppression, especially in Iraqi Kurdistan.

24:20 Yerevan Saeed: I think the resilience of the Kurdish people being able to resist, but also being adaptable. Live whenever possible to the mountain, but also come back. This sense of belonging, no matter where you are, the Kurds, you always feel that, okay, you belong to Kurdistan, you have to go back, you have this sense of duty towards your community. And also most of the Kurds do believe we don't have a state, and that does not mean that we have to just give up. But we have to continue, we have to endure, we have to fight for what have been taken away from us. And the result of that, that has only changed the result of the Kurdish people. And the result of that, the protection of the culture and also sense of identity has been the consequences of all of this.

25:25 Madi Minges: Yerevan, last question. Can you tell us a little bit more about the global Kurdish Initiative for Peace at SIS? What are the goals of your initiative, and how is your team working to achieve those?

25:39 Yerevan Saeed: So the goals of the missions of the Global Kurdish Initiative for Peace is to promote Kurdish culture, Kurdish history through various methods that include this publication, interviews, public programs that we have. We have lots of guests and speakers from diverse backgrounds, from policymakers, think tankers in Washington, D.C, we bring them and we talk about contemporary issues that's about the Kurds and also the Middle East.

26:13 Yerevan Saeed: And also we have lots of publications. I write about what is happening in the Kurdistan region. And also, we do have active social media presence on X, on LinkedIn and also on Instagram as well, where we are publishing or spreading our work. In addition to that, we are issuing newsletters where our activities, again, been circulated and also distributed to our contact at least. We have about 2,000 contact lists where they get our activities as well as our publications.

26:58 Madi Minges: Yerevan Saeed, thank you so much for joining Big World to talk to me about Kurdish statehood and Kurdish politics. It's been a pleasure to speak with you.

27:08 Yerevan Saeed: Thank you. Pleasure was mine.

27:09 Madi Minges: Big World is a production of the School of International Service at American University. Our podcast is available on our website, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you listen. If you like this episode, please leave us a rating or review. Our theme music is, It Was Just Cold by Andrew Codeman. Until next time.